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Krory Gallahand

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PostSubject: Nen Hexagon   Mon Aug 10, 2015 11:06 pm

Let's talk EXP costs! Warning! Incoming Math!

I think the cost of unlocking a nen and getting an ability for it outside of your native type is unduly expensive in EXP.

I'm not a huge fan of this picture because the chart shows for a manipulator whereas an Enhancer is the best type to show nen type relations. But it is the best I've got



Okay so here's what is up. When learning nen of types other then your native you've got to keep this chart in mind.

Native = 100%
Neighbor = 80%
Next Neighbor = 60%
Far Neighbor = 40%
Specialist = 1%

But based on the price of nen points, nen levels, and techniques our site looks like

Native = 100%
Neighbor = 50%
Next Neighbor = 25%
Far Neighbor = 12.5%
Specialist = 6.25%

I recommend we adjust the EXP prices to be more comparable to canon comparison.

So starting with techniques we have:

Native = 15
Neighbor = 30
Next Neighbor = 50
Far Neighbor = 100

By canon numbers I believe it should look more like

Native = 15
Neighbor = 18.75(20 for smooth numbers)
Next Neighbor = 25
Far Neighbor = 37.5(40 for smooth numbers)
Specialist = 1500

As for Nen Points... Eh What we have

Native = 1
Neighbor = 2
Next Neighbor = 4
Far Neighbor = 8

Canon numbers

Native = 1
Neighbor = 1.25
Next Neighbor = 1.66666666667
Far Neighbor = 2.5

Because of how these numbers play out and the awkwardness of fractions I feel Nen Levels should be bought via EXP.

So the cost in converting points to EXP the costs for Level 1 in each nen assuming you have bought no prior nen points at present are

Native: 0
Neighbor = 30 (2 points, first 10 exp, second 20 exp)
Next Neighbor = 100 (4 points, first 10, second 20, 30, 40)
Far Neighbor = 210 (6 points, 10, 20, 30, 40, 50, 60)
Specialist = 360 (8 points, 10, 20, 30, 40, 50, 60, 70, 80)

Trying to translate this to canon I guess it might look like

Native: 0
Neighbor = 30 (Setting this as the starting point because we can't do multiplicative math with 0's)
Next Neighbor = 40
Far Neighbor =60
Specialist = 36,000

So in conclusion here's what I see. To stay true to canon we should adjust the cost of techniques to what I calculated. Then we need to decide how badly do we need Nen Points and then regardless of if we stick to Nen Points or go to EXP for leveling up Nen the end cost should look more like what I calculated.

But I suppose my math would break Specialist abilities into uselessness. So I guess it would be best to keep EXP costs regarding specialists about the same.

Thank you for taking time to read my input.
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PostSubject: Re: Nen Hexagon   Tue Aug 11, 2015 8:33 am

Any oppinions that are less "I don't like it" and "canon" and instead focus on the effect these exp costs have on the roleplay?

Here why the EXP costs are that way: The EXP costs are that way to encorage focusing on one's native Nen over the others, so instead of becoming a jack of all trades your character becomes unique and specialist in one ability, thats also why we have themes. I want characters to be unique and if they want to fan out into other types I do not feel that it is too hard, it is 30 EXP for the first Rank in the neigbor, you could get that in a day. If the EXP costs were lower, especially as low as you suggest, choices would not matter much, because within weeks you would get every Nen Type.

As player I get no extra EXP and I have no advantages over any of you, but I do not feel that it is unreasonable, especially since in theory you could even start out with 3 Nens by using your first 100 EXP on that.

I will leave this topic open and encorage everyone to post their oppinion, but I do not think that I will change anything about it.
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Krory Gallahand

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PostSubject: Re: Nen Hexagon   Tue Aug 11, 2015 11:17 am

I guess in my haste to show off my opinion I failed to defend it. Sorry about that. So getting into the why, I believe it would encourage creativity. My suggestion would make it easier to branch out and diversify your nen portfolio. Some of the coolest nen abilities in HunterxHunter require a combination of different nen types. Issac Netero doesn't show a single technique that uses less then 2 nen types and averages 3 types. So while I understand the Chairman is an extreme case and we can't base every rule off the strongest nen user in the universe, I think we should value him as what he is: a role model.

While trying to find just how many things you can justify within the boundaries of your nen type is fun doing cool combination abilities utilizing multiple nen types would be even more fun.

You said you want everyone to specialize and become unique but with 5(not counting specialist) categories to choose from everyone who specializes will begin to fall under 5 main arch-types. There will be natural variation within each of course as no two players will be the same, but there will be some over arching similarities, that as we get more members will become more and more apparent.

But if we make it easier to use non-native nen then those 5 arch-types become many. Instead of just enhancers, emitters, transmuters, manipulators and conjurers we will start to see enhancer-emitters, transmuter-conjurers, manipulator-transmuters, enhancer-emitter-transmuters and all sorts of combinations.

So to recap
Lower Exp Costs = More Freedom = More Choices = More Variety = More Possibilities = More Unique Abilities

On the other hand I make no claim that the numbers I suggested are completely perfect and infallible. If you see what I mean but aren't sure you are all for it a compromise is always possible. While I like what I have suggested, any lower exp costs will generate more freedom to design abilities.

I guess a halfway point just for technique prices between where I am and where you are would look as follows:

Native: 15
Neighbor: 25
Next Neighbor: 35
Far Neighbor: 70

This way it wouldn't be as hard to branch out early on, but you couldn't go nuts combining Emitter-Conjurer or Transmuter-Manipulator without working for it.

That sing to you at all?
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PostSubject: Re: Nen Hexagon   Tue Aug 11, 2015 11:48 am

I appreciat the work you put in your suggestion and the answer to my post, I will take my time to think about a befiting answer and just want you to know you that I will do so, instead of answering you slopy right away.

Till then I would really be happy to see feedback from more people. I understand EXP and Money values are always a thing that some see as too hard to reach, others too easy and that to fully understand the progress we need to look at how higher difficulty job, event, exam and in the future raid like story arc rewards interact with these values.

I want to reach a value that scales well into all difficulties, so you do not feel like you suddenly reach a point where you can buy it all really easy and find no room to grow anymore or start at a point where you feel put in chains.

Right now I feel the best solution is to offer different ways of earning EXP and maybe ajusting the amount of EXP you earn, IF I find that some EXP costs are too high, because I think compared to the cost of other attributes Nen points and Techniques are in a good balance.

But as I said I will think about it a bit more and give a propper answer soon, meanwhile I hope to see more feedback on the topic.
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PostSubject: Re: Nen Hexagon   Tue Aug 11, 2015 10:51 pm

I just thought I'd add in my own personal opinion on the matter, considering more feedback was requested. I personally feel that Nen techniques might scale a bit too harshly in terms of experience gain versus cost. I agree with Krory on the idea that allowing character's more access to techniques of multiple nen types would increase diversity. Many emissions in the series hinge on being able to use manipulator correctly as well as several conjurer abilities, Such as Razor's Devils or Shoot's Hands respectively. While these character's are certainly exceptional and obviously highly trained in Nen, when considering most hunters and characters will only have access to one ability per nen type, and base all techniques off of that, it would certainly be more beneficial to have that available upon character creation even if it requires the vast majority of starting experience.

On the other hand however, I think that the Nen points system is good where it is at. It certainly shouldn't be easy to gain ranks in several other nen types, especially at higher levels and the numbers seem fairly accurate to me. The system also already works in such a way that if a character decides early on to develop techniques based off of two or more nen types it is much easier than if they had already devoted several nen points into their native nen.

I don't really have any opinions on the actual numbers as I don't think I'm particularly good at such things, so sorry for that. Hopefully this opinion is helpful in some way to someone.


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PostSubject: Re: Nen Hexagon   Mon Aug 31, 2015 10:52 am

I really had hoped for more feedback, but with the little activity we have in the forum, I guess I should not be surprised.

Quote :
You said you want everyone to specialize and become unique but with 5(not counting specialist) categories to choose from everyone who specializes will begin to fall under 5 main arch-types. There will be natural variation within each of course as no two players will be the same, but there will be some over arching similarities, that as we get more members will become more and more apparent.


Is what you said and nothing denies that to the people. It just takes a bit longer. As you said when you mentioned the Chairman, such mastery of Nen is rather extreme and it should be hard to reach.

What I meant to say with specialize on the Nen is that everyone should have a hard decision when picking the Nens they want to invest in, instead of just picking this, than that, then the one of there, without much worry.

To summarize it, for now the cost will not change.
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